L-Mount system (S5II/X) vs Nikon Z (Zf)

[dirk]

I am hesitating between the S5IIX and the Zf as my next camera. I made a quick comparison (I posted it in DPReview too), and I would like to read your thoughts and corrections if something is wrong:

I have used Nikon for over 20 years. I like Nikon as a brand and I like the way how their cameras work and operate from the usability stand point. I bought also into the Z-Systems. I had the Z6 Mk1 and now the Zfc and many lenses. I sold now most of it. I also used to have Sony cameras (APSC and fullframe), I still use Fuji X, MFT and of course Lumix FF L-Mount. Just that you know that I really know these different systems and that I try to be objective.

But, I have to say that my favourite camera of all times is the Nikon Df, because that sensor produces very beautiful and pleasing colors.

The DF has the D4 sensor in it as far as I know. Epseciall with higher ISO (>ISO400) you will get better results than with i.e. a Nikon D800, both regarding noise and colours.

I bought for my wife a Nikon Zfc. She said the camera is OK. I found the camera a little bit like a plastic toy.

I totally agree. I bought the Zfc immediately, because I loved the design. The camera is great, but cheap plastic. I was disappointed. But there is something that bothers me even more. The lens mount is too big for APS-C cameras, unless you make the body really big, which is not the purpose of APS-C cameras.

The problem is that I have only Nikon F mount lenses. The FTZ adapter makes the thing a bit bigger as desired.

That is a pain. The FTZ adapter works really good, BUT it is heavy and makes everything big. I used the FTZ adapter with a Nikkor 70-300 VR (FF, last generation for FX). Very good AF with Z6, great IQ, but the combination is huge. You will not like that.

The main problem of the Z-Mount is at the same time its advantage: The size of the Z-mount. Thanks to the huge size, it is a lot easier for Nikon to develop excellent lenses at lower costs (= higher margin). BUT this makes every lens, really every lens, even the 40/2.0 very big. A simlar lens in L-mount will be much smaller. That will determine how many lenses you get in your bag. I have a small Billingham hadley small and I get 3 L-Mount lenses in it, but only 2 Z-lenses. Z-Mount lenses are too thick because of the lens mount.

Additionally, if you want to use ZF or ZFc, you do not have a real handgrip. Therefore you need enough space on the body for the right hand to hold it comfortabley (at least 4,5cm). This is not possible with the ZFc and I have small hands. This is because of the thickness of the lenses/lens mount. This might be better with the ZF, but as far as I can see it in videos, the ZF is huge. Looks almost like Medium Format. I love the design of the ZF, but is is way too big for me.

Because of the size of the Z-Mount, I decided to get out of the Nikon Z-System. The site will not change and if I can have the same quality with a smaller lens mount in L-Mount, it makes no sense for me to use a bigger lens mount.

What I dont know is if the lenses of the Z system are better than the lenses of Lumix, Sigma and Leica...

Both are very good. Depends on the focal range and use case which one is slightly ahead of the other. But you only have aperture rings with Sigma i-series. For me this is a no-brainer. Same image quality, smaller size, aperture ring and 3 companies that are part of the alliance with many lenses.

The only current negative for me is the lack of a small 18/2.0 FFL and the lack of a rangefinder style body in L-Mount. But both is hopefully only a matter of time.

You need to take the ZF in your hand with different lenses and judge for yourself. But pay attention to it, otherwise you will sell it 6 months later again at a loss.

Also bear in mind, that it is never a good idea to have 2 different lens mounts if you do not want to be crazy like me. Brings only problems.

 

[xaviergut]

The main problem of the Z-Mount is at the same time its advantage: The size of the Z-mount.

Exactly, it is huge! They went from 47mm diameter in F-Mount to 55mm in Z mount. Sometimes I think Nikon wanted to put a medium format sensor inside that Z-Mount... hahaha, just joking

I am interested in the "subject detect manual focus" for manual lenses like Voigtländer, Zeiss or the old Nikkor. Apparently the Zf is able automatically to lock onto the eyes of people, magnifying the area around the eyes so you can quickly confirm sharp focus. I have the Voigtländer 40mm f2 Ultron SL II F-Mount glued to my Nikon Df and I am enjoying this type of "slow photography". I would like to try that lens in the Zf but, as you pointed out, the FTZ adapter will make the combo a bit too big.

I think for the moment I will get a S5IIX and in a couple of years, if there is a special offer for the Zf and I save enough money... hahaha, maybe in that case I will get one. Even a used one would be OK.

is never a good idea to have 2 different lens mounts if you do not want to be crazy like me. Brings only problems.

hahahahaha

 

[AlanC]

Also bear in mind, that it is never a good idea to have 2 different lens mounts if you do not want to be crazy like me. Brings only problems.

Looks at camera collection: L-Mount, Fujifilm X, Nikon F, Micro 4/3, a Canon AE-1P and 4 FD lenses lurking in the background...

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

The Z5 was a camera I briefly considered before deciding on the S5. If I were to make the same decision today it would be the Zf I'd look at rather than the Z5 but I suspect I'd make the same decision and go with the L mount (despite the great looks of the Zf). The main reason for this would be the lens selection. The L mount has some superb lenses at reasonable prices - the kit 20-60mm is incredibly useful despite being slow and Nikon's nearest equivalent is the 24-50mm which I doubt is as good as it's a significantly lower range. The Lumix 50/1.8 is really, really good and Nikon's equivalent, while also known to be superb, costs about 50% more. But the biggie is that in the L mount we have Sigma and to me that's a good step up from having Tamron or re-badged Tamron with a price hike. I don't think Sigma has brought out a bad lens in at least a decade and the I-series lenses in particular are a joy to use.

Apart from lenses, I've used some (not a lot) of Nikon gear and the design was always poor. Nikon do a lot of things the wrong way around and they skimp on things that other include for the same price. I've never liked their SOOC colours. Their own-brand lenses are either very expensive, though doubtless very good, or cheapish but skimping on quality for the price and you can get much better value elsewhere.

The S5 was, and still is, a fantastic bargain for the price when compared to any other FF platform and the S5 II is even better.

 

[xaviergut]

The L mount has some superb lenses at reasonable prices

I agree 100%.

The S5 was, and still is, a fantastic bargain for the price when compared to any other FF platform

Yes, absolutely. Nikon tagged the Z5 as an Entry-Level full frame mirrorles camera and some people thought the same about the Lumix S5, but I dont think the S5 is a entry level camera at all. It is a very good mid range camera. Now is a very cheap but excellent camera to start in the FF Panasonic system.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

Yes, absolutely. Nikon tagged the Z5 as an Entry-Level full frame mirrorles camera and some people thought the same about the Lumix S5, but I dont think the S5 is a entry level camera at all. It is a very good mid range camera. Now is a very cheap but excellent camera to start in the FF Panasonic system.

Yes, The S5 is not an entry-level camera at all and can now be bought new for under €1000 which makes it by far the best FF bargain there is. Panasonic would do very well to copy Sony and keep the older model in production as a cheaper alternative. It would allow a lot more people to enter the system and those people would be getting a great FF camera for what APS-C cameras cost in most systems, which would be a no-brainer.

 

[AlanC]

But the biggie is that in the L mount we have Sigma and to me that's a good step up from having Tamron or re-badged Tamron with a price hike.

And Sigma, as one of the founding members of L-Mount, are "first party", unlike the situation with Sony where third party manufacturers have access to the "basic" specifications so Sony's own lenses can retain an advantage (maximum frame rate is one example).

https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/News/Press/201102/11-018E/

Apart from lenses, I've used some (not a lot) of Nikon gear and the design was always poor. Nikon do a lot of things the wrong way around and they skimp on things that other include for the same price.

I used Nikon DSLR's for over 20 years: D1, D100, D2X, D800E. The only one of the four that I wasn't particularly keen on was the D100. The other three all represented significant developments in camera technology and the D2X, in particular, was excellent: it was my main camera from 2005 to 2012.

I'll agree with you on the Z series, though. I tried the Z6 and didn't like it one bit: the operation was significantly different to the DSLRs and I found it awkward and uncomfortable to use, and didn't like the design at all.

Their own-brand lenses are either very expensive, though doubtless very good, or cheapish but skimping on quality for the price and you can get much better value elsewhere.

I certainly agree here. I own the 28-70 f/2.8 AF-S, 80-200 f/2.8 AF-S and 14-24 f/2.8 AF-S. All were top-of-the-line (with prices to match) when I bought them, all perform really well, and they've all continued to work to this day so, in practice, they proved to be worth it. I also owned a couple of the mid-range lenses but they were considerably less impressive in terms of optical and build quality.

So while the Zf really appeals to me, I doubt I'd ever go back to Nikon.

 

[Travis Butler]

I agree 100%.

Yes, absolutely. Nikon tagged the Z5 as an Entry-Level full frame mirrorles camera and some people thought the same about the Lumix S5, but I dont think the S5 is an entry level camera at all. It is a very good mid range camera. Now is a very cheap but excellent camera to start in the FF Panasonic system.

The Z5 is one of the FF cameras I was looking at when considering FF; the others were the S5 and the Sigma fp. For me (not trying to speak for anyone else), the Z5 was the worst of the lot by far. It took decent pics, but the ergonomics were a disaster - bulky, heavy, grip didn’t feel comfortable which made the size/weight issues worse, and the controls were poorly located for me and required uncomfortable finger stretches.

 

[inspiredtimothy]

The Z5 is one of the FF cameras I was looking at when considering FF; the others were the S5 and the Sigma fp. For me (not trying to speak for anyone else), the Z5 was the worst of the lot by far. It took decent pics, but the ergonomics were a disaster - bulky, heavy, grip didn’t feel comfortable which made the size/weight issues worse, and the controls were poorly located for me and required uncomfortable finger stretches.

Do you know why exactly you found the grip on the Z5 uncomfortable? To me it like about the same size as the S5 grip

 

[Travis Butler]

Do you know why exactly you found the grip on the Z5 uncomfortable? To me it like about the same size as the S5 grip

From what I remember, it was shaped wrong - too thick, and it interfered with trying to reach the front control dial.

 

[dirk]

Looks at camera collection: L-Mount, Fujifilm X, Nikon F, Micro 4/3, a Canon AE-1P and 4 FD lenses lurking in the background...

ask my wife....

I am really bad in this regard. But over the last 6 months, I sold a lot and I continue to sell stuff, I do not really use anymore. In 2018/2019 it was different. Every brand started with mirrorless. I wanted to test them all. 4 years later I had enough time to compare and I know now my subjective preferences better.

For me it is L-Mount and MFT. Nikon is sold almost completely already. With Fuji I am undecided yet. I still wait what happens in 2024 regarding X-Pro 4, although I did not use my X-Pro2 in 2023 at all.

If Panasonic or Sigma would finally bring out a small/compact RF-style body, it would make my life a lot easier.

 

[AlanC]

I am really bad in this regard. But over the last 6 months, I sold a lot and I continue to sell stuff, I do not really use anymore.

I'm perhaps not quite as bad as it sounded: I held on to a couple of cameras and lenses I really like (Fuji X-Pro2 and 16mm f/1.4, Panasonic GM1 and 15mm f/1.7) when I sold the rest of both systems, and decided to keep my Nikon D800E and the three f/2.8 zooms as a backup when I realised just how little I was going to get for a 10 year old body and 20+ year old lenses.

 

[Travis Butler]

Do you know why exactly you found the grip on the Z5 uncomfortable? To me it like about the same size as the S5 grip

As I remember, the shape was wrong; too wide for my fingers to reach around and still have enough purchase when trying to reach other controls. I couldn’t reach the front control dial without an uncomfortable contortion. And while the rear controls were an uncomfortable stretch for my thumb in any case, the bulk of the front grip made it harder to shift my hand to improve that reach.

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

As I remember, the shape was wrong; too wide for my fingers to reach around and still have enough purchase when trying to reach other controls. I couldn’t reach the front control dial without an uncomfortable contortion. And while the rear controls were an uncomfortable stretch for my thumb in any case, the bulk of the front grip made it harder to shift my hand to improve that reach.

As someone who came from Pentax DSLRs I take good ergonomics for granted a lot of the time and with all the new mirrorless cameras around now I wonder how it is that camera copanies are still getting things wrong even in 2023. My S5 is ergonomically inferior to my old K-3 DSLR but I still wonder how Panasonic made what is essentially a brick with a front finger grip feel as comfortable as it does.