Rumors New Lumix camera(s) on May 13th?

[cascadian]

That thought seems reasonable to me. So many times another factor should rule, such as color or texture - yet we go 200% in search of a few misaligned or off-focus pixels. And the atmosphere can make waves in any focal length under the right/wrong conditions.

If my eyes were sharp enough to see what so many users find disastrous, I'd probably never want a zoom lens again. I'd also get worse at tuning them out, so I shall keep my eyes as they are, give or take my reading glasses.

 

[dirk]

This discussion with 36MP on the Nikon D800 was at a time, when most people shot still with a shutterspeed of 1/125s and the D800 had a mirror. This does not work, if you want to have really sharp images.

Nowadays we have mirrorless cameras witz sophisticated antishake systems and in most sports you use shutterspeeds between 1/1000s and 1/2000s. This is a totally different scenario.

I remember in the analog times tests which showed that you could get the best images with a Leica M6 and a Leica 90mm portrait lens for portrait (on film) with at least 1/500s. The differences were easy visible.

 

[dirk]

It seems that th S1II/S1IIe are around 80g lighter than the S1RII. Not a big difference, but I am paranoid with weight.

EVF, tilting screen, fps and AF seems to be the same, which is more important for me. Let's see what kind of new infomation the event will bring ...

 

[Jonathan-Mac]

It seems that the S1II/S1IIe are around 80g lighter than the S1RII. Not a big difference, but I am paranoid with weight.

EVF, tilting screen, fps and AF seems to be the same, which is more important for me. Let's see what kind of new information the event will bring ...

I wonder what would make them 80g lighter - I don't think the sensors have different weights.

As for the D800, those of us in Pentax-land were saying "Hello!! You need IBIS!!"

 

[dirk]

I wonder what would make them 80g lighter - I don't think the sensors have different weights.

Maybe cooling system?

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

The S1RII doesn't have DR boost. It only has DR Expansion.
Off course it would be exciting if it would be in the S1RII, but it isn't.

Edit: I just realized my typo. I meant S1II, not S1Rii. Sorry.

So, in the DPR review of the S1II, they say that it's DR Boost is "not comparable" to what is in the GH7 (i.e., dual-path), although they don't yet know what it is. They do comment that there is a significant rolling shutter impact when it is engaged.

I do wonder how much of a difference one would see when going from "14+" to 15 stops of DR. I know that there was lots of thrashing about on the L-mount forum on DPR about the 11.08 stops of PDR (photons to photos) for the S1RII compared to the 11.63 of the Sony a7RV. However, when I downloaded very dark raws from both cameras from the DPR comparison tool, and pushed them 6 stops in Capture One, it was very difficult to spot a difference. So I'm not sure it's that important when both camera have such a high DR overall.

But perhaps in video it is more important?

 

[Quentinquirelino]

So, in the DPR review of the S1II, they say that it's DR Boost is "not comparable" to what is in the GH7 (i.e., dual-path), although they don't yet know what it is. They do comment that there is a significant rolling shutter impact when it is engaged.

Judging by the rolling shutter measurements of Gerald Undone, it's very much comparable to what the GH7 does. It doubles the rolling shutter because it reads out twice. But in the S1II it seems to only work in video mode. But the S1II seems to have decent DR in photo mode never the less.

I do wonder how much of a difference one would see when going from "14+" to 15 stops of DR. I know that there was lots of thrashing about on the L-mount forum on DPR about the 11.08 stops of PDR (photons to photos) for the S1RII compared to the 11.63 of the Sony a7RV. However, when I downloaded very dark raws from both cameras from the DPR comparison tool, and pushed them 6 stops in Capture One, it was very difficult to spot a difference. So I'm not sure it's that important when both camera have such a high DR overall.

But perhaps in video it is more important?

Yes, I think it's more important in video.

 

[Pete_W]

there was lots of thrashing about on the L-mount forum on DPR about the 11.08 stops of PDR (photons to photos) for the S1RII compared to the 11.63 of the Sony a7RV. However, when I downloaded very dark raws from both cameras from the DPR comparison tool, and pushed them 6 stops in Capture One, it was very difficult to spot a difference. So I'm not sure it's that important when both camera have such a high DR overall.

I certainly don't miss any of those endless arguments on DPR! I always found that as soon as someone starts quoting PDR numbers and comparing to other brands (and usually brands/models that are in a totally different class) the conversation just goes down the toilet. It's all specifications and not photography or actual image results.

 

[Miki]

Speaking of Nikon Z, it seems that Lumix is releasing the Nikon Z6iii and Nikon Z5ii at the same time...

But, I still don't see any feature that could make photographers from Sony, Canon or Nikon change to L-Mount system...

And my hope for a RF style camera with evf, grip and mechanical shutter (a S9 foto centric) is starting to vanish...

Nikon ZIII offers only 10.5 of DR vs. 11.5 DR of ZII, and vs. Lumix's 14.5 of DR.
When, moving out from Fuji X-Trans, I was attracted to ZIII for better ergo, AF, and an excellent aid for manual adapted lenses.
But, 10.5 of DR has effectively put me off Nikon.
And, I want no more than 24MP sensor.
For comparison, my 10 y.o. X-Pro2 has 12,5 of DR, and that's not enough for extreme light conditions, like in Himalayas, i.e. ... not to mention, how extremely challenging is to edit X-Trans RAW files.

 

[HarisO]

I do wonder how much of a difference one would see when going from "14+" to 15 stops of DR. I know that there was lots of thrashing about on the L-mount forum on DPR about the 11.08 stops of PDR (photons to photos) for the S1RII compared to the 11.63 of the Sony a7RV. However, when I downloaded very dark raws from both cameras from the DPR comparison tool, and pushed them 6 stops in Capture One, it was very difficult to spot a difference. So I'm not sure it's that important when both camera have such a high DR overall.

But perhaps in video it is more important?

I mean Photons to Photos has been wrong in the past, too. He had very different numbers for the S1R (basically putting it at almost 12 PDR before eventually settling at something like 11.3 or so) and then ended up changing them with 0 transparency. Never explained what went wrong there. Coincidentally he had his (wrong) numbers up somewhen in March/April 2019 and in May 2019 DXO Mark (which, imo, is a site with a more transparent and reliable testing methodology) put out THEIR PDR numbers. And basically after that eventually Photons to Photos ended up changing the result on his site to match DXO Mark.

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

I mean Photons to Photos has been wrong in the past, too. He had very different numbers for the S1R (basically putting it at almost 12 PDR before eventually settling at something like 11.3 or so) and then ended up changing them with 0 transparency. Never explained what went wrong there. Coincidentally he had his (wrong) numbers up somewhen in March/April 2019 and in May 2019 DXO Mark (which, imo, is a site with a more transparent and reliable testing methodology) put out THEIR PDR numbers. And basically after that eventually Photons to Photos ended up changing the result on his site to match DXO Mark.

I've submitted a second set of data for the S1RII to Bill, but he hasn't added it to the website yet (at least, according to his change log). Will be interesting to see if the numbers change.

And, the PDR number is interesting. Bill says it's supposed to help you understand how much DR (which I read as noise) you will see in an 8x10 print when held at arm's length. He also says that higher PDR levels will be overkill for that test and you won't be able to tell the difference. Which makes sense - I'm assuming that an ISO 1600 shot when printed at 8x10 and held at arm's length would have no visible noise.

Anyway, what is of interest to me is how much noise I see when I squeeze all that DR into something with much less DR, like a 10-bit panel or a 8-bit print (i.e., compressing the DR by lifting shadows). And, again, I think pretty much most-if-not-all FF sensors these days when shot at base ISO will have excellent exposure latitude as long as the shots were reasonably (but not necessarily perfectly) exposed. So I don't consider it a buying consideration. Of course, if somebody is using the camera scientifically and directly extracting data from the raw file that's different. But even for landscape, I just don't think it matters anymore, which is why Nikon, Panasonic, etc. are giving up some DR to get speed.

One thing that I do find interesting, however, is his "Photographic Dynamic Range Shadow Improvement Chart." Which helps you understand what happens when you shoot at elevated ISOs and then lift shadows. The S1RII sensor does very well here - perhaps best among it's peers. And indeed, if I download an ISO 3200 Sony A7RV image from DPR's image comparison tool, and compare it to the equivalent S1RII image by lifting shadows, I do see noticeably more noise in the Sony image. Which means the S1RII sensor should be better for wildlife & sports (at least from a noise perspective) since those are often shot well above base ISO. Same for raw video, etc. So this may be a very savvy choice that Panasonic made, assuming people can get away from screaming "It's got better PDR at base ISO!!!!" for a minute and actually look at images in the raw processor of their choice.

 

[Babylonia]

One thing that I do find interesting, however, is his "Photographic Dynamic Range Shadow Improvement Chart." Which helps you understand what happens when you shoot at elevated ISOs and then lift shadows. The S1RII sensor does very well here - perhaps best among it's peers. And indeed, if I download an ISO 3200 Sony A7RV image from DPR's image comparison tool, and compare it to the equivalent S1RII image by lifting shadows, I do see noticeably more noise in the Sony image. Which means the S1RII sensor should be better for wildlife & sports (at least from a noise perspective) since those are often shot well above base ISO. Same for raw video, etc. So this may be a very savvy choice that Panasonic made, assuming people can get away from screaming "It's got better PDR at base ISO!!!!" for a minute and actually look at images in the raw processor of their choice.

In general I am not a sport & wildlife photographer at all.
Nor need fast reading out of sensor data as for high speed "video" or "motorised" per second image shooting.
But far more interested in this extra DR latitude for general photography.

As I often met and choose my subjects, under typical light circumstances ---> e.g. backlight, to "high light" hair for portraiture under natural outdoor light conditions.
Or subjects do already have harsh dark / light contrast as by indoor / outdoor light conditions, or e.g. City evening shots.
Without possibilities for exposure bracketing. Where I do want the best possible basic DR latitude already as for processing RAW data, in just one shot.

This favour for having more DR latitude by e.g. the S1R II camera, versus Sony or Nikon camera's, "for me" choosing a camera is far more important,
than "more fast" camera's. That Nikon even is choosing to "lower" dynamic range in comparison to older camera models, in favour for speed.
I don't understand at all. (IMO a bad choice).

As for example a picture I showed within another subject about a discussion how to interpreted tools like zebra's for high light detail.
For that situation, and use of the older S1R, I need all the latitude and processing tricks of lowering noise at certain image areas.
Every extra stop of DR is welcome.

Which do-it-all zoom lens?

Here's a few more, taken at night. You can still see detail inside of buildings, read the signage on the shopfront banners etc. Much nicer looking to my eye than just blown out patches of white. But that's just me. They're far from technically perfect, but I'm happy that they look pretty much...

l-mount-forum.com

"If" possible, and already prepared for a situation in advance. I take a foldable reflector screen with me.
And ask one or the other "model" to give assistance if they can catch the backlight, to brighten up shadows.
So having less problems by processing afterwards.

Examples:
( Image shoot out of a "Skate park employee" )

• Panasonic - DC-S1R
• 50mm F1.4 DG DN | Art 023
• 50.0 mm
• ƒ/2
• 1/500 sec
• Pattern
• Manual exposure
• ISO 640

In detail, I hoped for some more latitude within the high light details within the hair. But that was the border.
I "should" have chosen a slightly darker, better exposure setting. But this is one shot from a serie of continuous shots during a run.
The lighting conditions change as the sunlight comes more or less through the open gaps between the branches of the forest path.
(Still I was surprised by the relatively good AFC by my "slow" S1R & lens combination, to keep track by the moving woman).

• Panasonic - DC-S1R
• 50mm F1.4 DG DN | Art 023
• 50.0 mm
• ƒ/2
• 1/500 sec
• Pattern
• Manual exposure
• ISO 640

( A friend who accompanied the other young woman: "healthcare worker" )

• Panasonic - DC-S1R
• LUMIX S 85/F1.8
• 85.0 mm
• ƒ/2
• 1/500 sec
• Pattern
• Manual exposure
• ISO 1600

 

[GeorgeHudetz]

Yes, ETTR when the light is rapidly changing can be difficult. Generally I found the S1R to have decent highlight recovery, but shadows of course have more latitude; hence I am more concerned with how the various sensors compare in terms of raising shadows vs. lowering highlights.

Again, after raising *very* dark images 6 stops at base ISO, I find little difference in noise amongst the various hi-resolution FF sensors currently being used. With the exception being Canon - those files don't have the latitude that I see in Panasonic, Nikon, and Sony FF sensors. And since I rarely need to raise the shadows more than 3 or 4 stops (and even that is extreme, for me) I find that the reported variances in PDR at base ISO just doesn't matter, and that I'd rather have the increased latitude at elevated ISO, where it matters more (since you have fundamentally less DR to begin with). Or the faster sensor readout.

It's interesting that both your shots above were at elevated ISOs; this is where the S1RII would shine over some of it's contemporaries (and the S1R), although you would have had to lower exposure a little to get those highlights back and then lean on the superior shadow raising of the S1RII's sensor. The Z8 would perform similarly - it also has very good shadow improvement (again, ref Bill's charts) at elevated ISOs.

So, when you say "every stop counts" I think this is especially true at elevated ISOs - since DR drops off as ISOs rise - and it's interesting that the sensors which trade base ISO DR for speed (Z8, S1RII) actually have better DR (or, more specifically: lower noise) at elevated ISOs than those that do not (a7RV). At least, if you intend to raise shadows in raw, anyway.

Getting back to the big picture of trading off some base ISO DR to get significantly better sensor readout speed, it's just a variation on how the camera performs and for some will prefer one to the other. Choices are good. But I'm still waiting for images that show a meaningful IQ difference between a base ISO PDR of 11.6 (Sony a7RV) and 11.1 (S1RII, assuming that number holds). I did my best to see it and it didn't materialize in my workflows. So for now I think this new tradeoff is better, since elevated ISOs are a fact of life for most of us, at least some of the time.

 

[Markuswelder]

( A friend who accompanied the other young woman: "healthcare worker" )

If it were me, I would have shot that at 1/125 shutter speed, dropped the ISO to 400, and would have gained plenty in Dynamic range over ISO 1600

 

[Babylonia]

....that I'd rather have the increased latitude at elevated ISO, where it matters more (since you have fundamentally less DR to begin with). Or the faster sensor readout.

It's interesting that both your shots above were at elevated ISOs; this is where the S1RII would shine over some of it's contemporaries (and the S1R), although you would have had to lower exposure a little to get those highlights back and then lean on the superior shadow raising of the S1RII's sensor.

That's what I am talking about.
Also << the picture / interior >> image itself (scroll down within that message) by what I was referring to, at the subject by using ETTR.
The Most old "Beer house" - inn - cafe within the Netherlands. Since 1478

is made by elevated ISO ----> 1/50 sec - F 2.0 - ISO 1000
But as you can see, I don't have much spare by the other variables, as exposure time, and full wide opening of the lens already.
To get the lowest ISO value and best dynamic range. (Lumix S1R - Sigma 35mm F2 DG DN | Contemporary ).

Basically it is not specially about ETTR "pur sang", but finding the absolute borders of dynamic range to get still some detail in high lights,
as well the best shadow conditions, to get the most less noise, under these elevated ISOs conditions.

I do realise that this new S1R II model has much more latitude as for these elevated ISOs, still having far less noise, and better Dynamic range.
Than the older S1R model.

Updating to this new S1R II camera??
I am already retired some years (72 y), and not taking that much pictures any-more by health conditions.
So I try to deal as far as can be done by the more limit possibilities of the older S1R camera. (Just a hobby).
Bought that S1R during Corona time (june 2021), incl. the 24-105/F4.0 lens having a big discount / cashback --> totally € 3100,-
-

 

[RuleOfThirds]

That's what I am talking about.
Also << the picture / interior >> image itself (scroll down within that message) by what I was referring to, at the subject by using ETTR.
The Most old "Beer house" - inn - cafe within the Netherlands. Since 1478

is made by elevated ISO ----> 1/50 sec - F 2.0 - ISO 1000
But as you can see, I don't have much spare by the other variables, as exposure time, and full wide opening of the lens already.
To get the lowest ISO value and best dynamic range. (Lumix S1R - Sigma 35mm F2 DG DN | Contemporary ).

Basically it is not specially about ETTR "pur sang", but finding the absolute borders of dynamic range to get still some detail in high lights,
as well the best shadow conditions, to get the most less noise, under these elevated ISOs conditions.

I do realise that this new S1R II model has much more latitude as for these elevated ISOs, still having far less noise, and better Dynamic range.
Than the older S1R model.

Updating to this new S1R II camera??
I am already retired some years (72 y), and not taking that much pictures any-more by health conditions.
So I try to deal as far as can be done by the more limit possibilities of the older S1R camera. (Just a hobby).
Bought that S1R during Corona time (june 2021), incl. the 24-105/F4.0 lens having a big discount / cashback --> totally € 3100,-
-

I think if necessary, using the expose for highlights feature of the s5ii can come in handy. Then with it is quite easy easy to dial in how much you er willing to over expose on that calculated exposure. I don’t actually know how much latitude there is in the raw for highlights. Maybe to +1.

 

[Babylonia]

If it were me, I would have shot that at 1/125 shutter speed, dropped the ISO to 400, and would have gained plenty in Dynamic range over ISO 1600

Well, if you have everything under control down to the last detail from first to last picture?

That woman initially didn't want to be photographed at all. Asked her several times. (Very shy and not confident about herself).
She was actually only there to keep her friend company, as a kind of "chaperone".
(Keep in mind the situation of two young woman, together with a "strange" elderly man, who easily could be their father for taking some pictures).

But when she saw how much fun it was with her friend.
At the very end of the shoot she regret and asked if she still could be photographed.

Just a short three minute session, (checked EXIF info by first and last picture) where I give some posing/sitting tips,
some "pep-talking" to make herself comfortable and take some pictures.
Auto ISO setting used. Most ISO values 320 - 400, a few with 800, and going up 1000, typically the last picture, that one only - ISO 1600

Well, no problem at all, as these pictures is not about the borders of dynamic range, nor noise problems.
Written as an "alternative" example to the other situations mentioned when having dynamic range problem, and no control,
by harsh dark / light contrast as by indoor / outdoor light conditions, or e.g. City evening shots.

I wrote:

"If" possible, and already prepared for a situation in advance. I take a foldable reflector screen with me.
And ask one or the other "model" to give assistance if they can catch the backlight, to brighten up shadows.
So having less problems by processing afterwards.

The reflection of the foldable reflector screen can be noticed as illuminated highlights in the eyes.
Another bonus, to take advantage of such an extra simple accessary.

Professional photographers, doing a daily job and taking pictures "outdoors" of professional models. (No shy woman).
Maybe take some extra high powered battery flash equipment for shadow illumination, and having extra people assistance to run such a production.
Have no dynamic range problems either, as they have all lighting conditions under control within the best possible technical conditions.
But as for sure, don't shoot a three minutes session.
-