S9 now available for £999 with 20-60 lens

[pdk42]

LUMIX S9 Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera Kit with Lens - Crimson Red DC-S9KE-R

ELEVATE YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA. Create captivating content effortlessly with the Panasonic Lumix DC-S9K Kit. This package includes the S9 Full-Frame camera and a versatile 20-60mm F3.5-5.6 Lens, ideal for a variety of shooting scenarios. The S9 is packed with professional features, allowing you to...

store.panasonic.co.uk

 

[pdk42]

Various other deals too.

Summer Essentials Lumix Cameras and Lenses - Campaign Panasonic Store

store.panasonic.co.uk

 

[dirk]

That is an insane price for this combination. It was not very smart to launch it for twice the price. People get used to these kind of price drops and then they rather wait, if Panasonic launches a new model.

I bought mine 1 year ago. No regrets. I only miss a small and light 28/2.0 AF lens from Sigma for it. Then it could be a better alternative for my Ricoh GR3.

 

[pdk42]

I'd really like a camera of this size and styling. But as you're all no doubt tired of me saying - I need an EVF.

 

[dirk]

I am afraid that we will never see a S9 with EVF, because it could be a competition to the Leica Q.

Sigma might be able to offer something like this, but Panasonic is in my view too deep in this L2 cooperation with Leica to risk it.

I would love to see one though. A fullframe GX9 on steroids.

 

[pdk42]

I am afraid that we will never see a S9 with EVF, because it could be a competition to the Leica Q.

Sigma might be able to offer something like this, but Panasonic is in my view too deep in this L2 cooperation with Leica to risk it.

I would love to see one though. A fullframe GX9 on steroids.

But the Leica Q is fixed lens, and differentiates itself in any case simply by being a Leica. Let's face it, you could put any modern mid-level camera up against a Leica and 99.9% of the world would be unable to differentiate the images produced from them. If there really was a case that a cheaper Leica Q could eat its lunch then a Sony A7Cr with the Sigma 35mm f2 i-Series would fit that bill perfectly. But people want the Leica because of its name, its gestalt, its prestige. So, an L-mount version of the A7CR would not be in any way encroaching on its territory. In fact, all it would encroach on would be the A7CR's territory!

 

[cascadian]

Early on, I had hoped for more indifferent reviews to get the s9 into my price range but I'd prefer Lumix and L to catch fire! I would definitely like more s9-scale lenses, please; the 20-60 is my ideal range and its size helps me tame the S1 beast.

At some point the S1 will stand aside for a smaller body - but I'll certainly enjoy the ride for now!!

 

[dirk]

But the Leica Q is fixed lens, and differentiates itself in any case simply by being a Leica.

I am not a Leica or Panasonic Manager. I do not know what kind of agreements have been made. But what we can guess is, that the Q body seems to be developed by Panasonic like every modern Leica camera.

But for the first time, there is no similar product with a Lumix lable on it. Same for the Leica SL3.

This is not by accident in my view.

Leica can not control, what Sony does. Probably even not what Sigma does although they are founding partner of the LMount alliance.

But they can control Panasonic. If Leica places an order for a specific product, they can write into that contract, that Panasonic is not allowed to offer something similar. Even if it has not a fixed lens.

I do not think that Leica has this kind of control over Sigma, although Sigma made many lenses for Leica, because Sigma is in a better bargaining position. Sigma sells a multiple of lenses in other mounts.

I hoped for many years for a Lumix Q camera, but it did not happen. Same for a Lumix GX9 in fullframe. Many costumers ask for these Lumix products, but Panasonic refuses to offer them.

Panasonic is not stupid. They would not turn down an offer to make more money. This is why I think that there are other agreements which holding Panasonic back.

 

[pdk42]

I am not a Leica or Panasonic Manager. I do not know what kind of agreements have been made. But what we can guess is, that the Q body seems to be developed by Panasonic like every modern Leica camera.

But for the first time, there is no similar product with a Lumix lable on it. Same for the Leica SL3.

This is not by accident in my view.

Leica can not control, what Sony does. Probably even not what Sigma does although they are founding partner of the LMount alliance.

But they can control Panasonic. If Leica places an order for a specific product, they can write into that contract, that Panasonic is not allowed to offer something similar. Even if it has not a fixed lens.

I do not think that Leica has this kind of control over Sigma, although Sigma made many lenses for Leica, because Sigma is in a better bargaining position. Sigma sells a multiple of lenses in other mounts.

I hoped for many years for a Lumix Q camera, but it did not happen. Same for a Lumix GX9 in fullframe. Many costumers ask for these Lumix products, but Panasonic refuses to offer them.

Panasonic is not stupid. They would not turn down an offer to make more money. This is why I think that there are other agreements which holding Panasonic back.

I suppose we’ll never know what deals have been done and whether there are non-compete agreements between Panasonic and Leica. But it seems to me that the two brands differentiate each other pretty well simply by their brand positioning in terms of price and “brand engineering”. Mostly, Leica and Panasonic buyers don’t swap across brands. The SL3 and the S1Rii are clearly both capable cameras with a large feature overlap. But I think SL3 buyers will remain SL3 buyers whilst S1Rii buyers will remain S1Rii buyers. I think an S9 with EVF would similarly not eat into Q sales.

 

[dirk]

I am sure that Leica Q3 second hand prices would go south, if Panasonic would introduce a Lumix Q3 and sales numbers of new Leica Q3 would do the same.

The Leica Q prices are just way to high to avoid such a crash.

I do think that there are many non-typical Leica costumers among the Leica Q3 owners, who only bought that camera, because there is no alternative out there. The Sony A7cR is no alternative for various technical reasons.

 

[pdk42]

The Sony A7cR is no alternative for various technical reasons.

Having shot with an A7Cr for a few hours and also spent a little while with a Q2 at a trade show, I can understand that. The A7Cr is a great concept but I found it to be fiddly to use, in many ways. It didn't have the ergonomics to make me want to use it (now I sound like @Travis Butler ! ). On the other hand I just really loved the Q2. I just wish it had a removable lens.

 

[dirk]

On the other hand I just really loved the Q2. I just wish it had a removable lens.

This or a Lumix Q with Lumix prices.

A Leica Q with removable lens would result in Leica M prices and Leica M sales would go south too.

 

[xaviergut]

I borrowed my brother's Sony A7CR and used it for months, but I haven't been able to use a Leica Q. I think they're products aimed at different users. There's certainly no lens on the market equivalent to the Leica 43mm f/2 APO. The Sony 40mm f/2.5 is excellent, but I don't think it can compete with a Leica APO. That's why the Leica is priced that way, among other reasons for build quality. Plus, the EVF is better than the Sony's.

The A7CR has its advantages... better AF, better IBIS, (better video specs?) and the versatility that comes with being able to change lenses at a moment's notice for a specific job and use Sony's G Master lenses. And of course, the price, as the Sony is less than half the price, but without the lens. Yes, it is a camera that attracts me quite a bit, to be honest.

The point of this comment is that if Lumix were to make an S9 with an EVF, mechanical shutter, and grip, it would take more market share away from the Sony A7CR than from the Leica Q3 (43), because I don't think that new S9 would have a market price of €6,500 like the Leica Q3, and even less than the €3,000 price of the Sony A7CR. And price is the first thing a user looks at when looking for information about a camera.

On another note, I think the new Sony RX1Riii is the clearest rival to the Leica Q3, and I don't think Lumix will ever make a compact full-frame camera like that...

 

[dirk]

it would take more market share away from the Sony A7CR than from the Leica Q3 (43)

Leica does not care about Sony's market share. They only care about their own sales. The whole niche-market/high price business strategy only works for Leica, if they do not allow too much canibalisation into their own products. Leica can not forbid Sony to launch a smililar product, but they can do this with Panasonic, which is my point.

On another note, I think the new Sony RX1Riii is the clearest rival to the Leica Q3,

All reviews I have seen so far indicate that the new Sony RX1Riii can not hold a candle against the Leica Q3 43. Except the price.

 

[xaviergut]

All reviews I have seen so far indicate that the new Sony RX1Riii can not hold a candle against the Leica Q3 43. Except the price.

Yes, Dirk. The Leica Q3 is better. I would go for the Leica, but for some people just another advantage of the Sony RX1Riii is the size and weight, 245 grams less.

 

[dirk]

I love small cameras. I really do. But I would not be willing to pay 5.000€ for a RX1Riii, if the old Zeiss lens can not deliver on this 60MP sensor AND has a low resolution EVF AND no tilt screen And no IBIS AND no.... you name it....

I sold even the Leica Q3 28mm again, because I think that lens is not good enough for the 60MP sensor to justify that price level. So, I am really picky if I have to spend that amount of money.

I think a Ricoh GR3 or GR3x or a Sony A7cRii with a good lens is a better deal than the Sony RX1Riii.

We are talking about insane price levels for compact cameras. For both, Leica and Sony RX1Riii.

If you are asking for so much money, the camera has to be perfect in almost every way.

Even for brewing my coffee each morning...

PS: Even the Leica Q3 43 has its flaws. AF is not on par with Sony and start-up time is slow.

But I am ready to accept this compromise, because I do not care about these two "flaws". I do not need it for my use cases.

 

[pdk42]

The point of this comment is that if Lumix were to make an S9 with an EVF, mechanical shutter, and grip, it would take more market share away from the Sony A7CR than from the Leica Q3 (43), because I don't think that new S9 would have a market price of €6,500 like the Leica Q3, and even less than the €3,000 price of the Sony A7CR. And price is the first thing a user looks at when looking for information about a camera.

Exactly. A Lumix S10 (S9 with an EVF) would primarily be competition for the A7CR (or A7C ii), not the Leica Q3.

 

[pdk42]

PS: Even the Leica Q3 43 has its flaws. AF is not on par with Sony and start-up time is slow.

But I am ready to accept this compromise, because I do not care about these two "flaws". I do not need it for my use cases.

I must say, I'd love a Q3. But I'd prefer a 35mm lens, so I'd have to go for the 28mm one and crop.

 

[dirk]

I must say, I'd love a Q3. But I'd prefer a 35mm lens, so I'd have to go for the 28mm one and crop.

As far as I remember, the image quality of the Leica Q3 28mm was "worst" in the corners at 28mm.

If you crop to 35mm anyway, this might be the perfect solution for you.

But I do not do very in depth image quality tests like you do. So, please take my experience with a grain of salt.

Exactly. A Lumix S10 (S9 with an EVF) would primarily be competition for the A7CR (or A7C ii), not the Leica Q3.

If that would be the case, why is Panasonic then not offering a Lumix Q and/or a S9 with EVF?

 

[pdk42]

If that would be the case, why is Panasonic then not offering a [Lumix Q and/or a] S9 with EVF?

That’s a question that I keep asking myself. I actually also asked this of Matt who works for LUMIX UK. He didn’t have an answer either!