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Rumors Panasonic 24-60 f2.8 or f2.0

Dustin does seem to think that the 24-60 is missing that 3D pop that the 24-70 has. FF to about the 6 min mark.
To understand and believe that statement I would need to see some pictures that show the difference in 3D pop. I really doubt such a difference exists, but it would be interesting if someone could demonstrate it.

Anyway, of the three Panasonic products introduced today the one most interesting to me is the 24-60mm lens. I am very impressed with the S1 II camera, but I don't need it right now. I have been looking for a good 24-70 2.8 for the S1R II, but 24-60 2.8 might do it. I had not thought about a smaller lens, so the possiblity is pretty attractive, especially considering using it with x2 HyZ. Certainly in good time I would like to see lot more pictures from the 24-60.
 
To understand and believe that statement I would need to see some pictures that show the difference in 3D pop. I really doubt such a difference exists, but it would be interesting if someone could demonstrate it.

Anyway, of the three Panasonic products introduced today the one most interesting to me is the 24-60mm lens. I am very impressed with the S1 II camera, but I don't need it right now. I have been looking for a good 24-70 2.8 for the S1R II, but 24-60 2.8 might do it. I had not thought about a smaller lens, so the possiblity is pretty attractive, especially considering using it with x2 HyZ. Certainly in good time I would like to see lot more pictures from the 24-60.
The thing I'm interested in seeing, is if the S1 mkII has noticeably better AFC than the S1 E. With its faster sensor readout.
And if any theoretical differences are only applicable once you get up over say 15 FPS.
The reason I say that, is that my G9 had much better AFC in mechanical shutter mode, than in E shutter.

PS -I'm not in the market for any of the new releases personally. But it doesn't stop me from taking an interest.
 
It also looks like we're also being asked to subsidise the US market and their tariffs going by the recommended retail pricing announced. $900 US, $1900 AUD. Back to the bad old days, where buying overseas was the cheaper option most of the time.
Thanks Donald
 
Sorry S1ii, great but overkill, the S5ii suffices me. I use the G9 for 4k 120p, that is good enough for me.

So the 24-60 is for me the news of the day. Foto Koch has my preorder (expected "Anfang Juni")

Yes, I am a cheapo. And it is smaller and 200 EUR cheaper than the sigma. From the reviews, it is more than sharp enough for my use.

I think as soon as this lens is available in kits, the S5ii with it will be the best super-affordable FF entry that is fully featured.
 
To understand and believe that statement I would need to see some pictures that show the difference in 3D pop. I really doubt such a difference exists, but it would be interesting if someone could demonstrate it.
3D pop is something a lot of people argue over because there are so many different ways of defining it. ^^;; Some people I've discussed with define it entirely as foreground/background separation - but while that's part of it, for me it's not sufficient. I define it in terms of my obsession with tonality - both with good microcontrast highlighting the sharp distinctions where surfaces meet and change (cracks, wrinkles), and with strong rendering of subtle tonal variations (defining the volume of an object as light plays across it, as with a sphere or a cloud). The PanLeica lenses I tried on M4/3 had it for me - the 15/1.7 and 12-60 - and so did the Lumix 20/1.7.

Others I tried that were supposed to have it - the Contax/Zeiss Vario-Sonnar 35-70/3.4, for example - didn't really do it for me. They had good microcontrast but (at least in the pics I took with it) not the tonal shading.
 
@dmvillano @Markuswelder

Please guys, no battles and no insults in the forum. We are a friendly forum with respect for each other's opinion.
 
I like what I'm seeing from the 24-60 2.8
The S Pro 24-70 has always been too big and heavy (and expensive) for me.
As always it's good to have choices.
 
3D pop is something a lot of people argue over because there are so many different ways of defining it. ^^;; Some people I've discussed with define it entirely as foreground/background separation - but while that's part of it, for me it's not sufficient. I define it in terms of my obsession with tonality - both with good microcontrast highlighting the sharp distinctions where surfaces meet and change (cracks, wrinkles), and with strong rendering of subtle tonal variations (defining the volume of an object as light plays across it, as with a sphere or a cloud). The PanLeica lenses I tried on M4/3 had it for me - the 15/1.7 and 12-60 - and so did the Lumix 20/1.7.
Right - you and I seem to look at it similarly. In the simplest of terms, I'm looking for a lens that makes the objects in the scene look realistic. Which is to way, I want the 2D rendering of the scene to look three dimensional. Specifically when I am zoomed in 100% and looking at an area of the image that is in-focus. My S-Pro 70-200 F2.8 gives this 3D rendering; my 70-300 does not. Not that the 70-300 looks soft; it just looks flat in comparison.

Note that for me, the "viewing at 100%" is an important piece of this. I do believe that nearly most any modern lens can make a scene look 3D when you down-sample the image, particularly if you use a bit of output sharpening. But if you intend to print large - which means up-sampling the image - it seems to me that starting with the best possible fidelity is important, although I admit my experience in making large prints is limited.

BTW, I understand the skepticism many have for this. I used to have this same skepticism. However, last fall I was looking at an image made by my Sigma 65mm F2 - again at 100% - and I thought "gee, that looks nice & three-dimensional." And so I thought about all the discussions I've read about some lenses having "3D pop." And thought, "Nah, It's just the lighting." And of course, lighting is an important part of the equation. But to test that hypothesis - that's it's just the lighting - I made that same image with the same lighting using my 24-105, and sure enough I didn't see that poppy 3D rendering. There was lots of detail but it looked flat. And now I am on a quest, LOL, the first step of which was to buy the S-Pro 70-200 F2.8.

Anyway, call me mad if you want to, but this is where my head is at today. No promises as to what I will think tomorrow. I am still grappling with the importance of this rendering characteristic for landscape images (I do think that for something like product photography - like of a fine watch - the value of a 3D rendering is more obvious). Perhaps it's overkill for landscape, although I can see the difference, for example, in tree trunks looking more 3D with the beefy S-Pro. But would anybody actually care when looking at a landscape print - even a large one? Perhaps not; perhaps for that genre, it's like the rolling shutter effect - something we as photographers can obsess over, but most people don't even notice. A great scene is a great scene, period - right? And a great landscape composition would not be ruined by a "flat" lens, as long as the detail is there. But if a large, acrylic print could be made to look more like a window into the scene, wouldn't that make it an even better print? Hopefully I'll find out soon enough.

Others I tried that were supposed to have it - the Contax/Zeiss Vario-Sonnar 35-70/3.4, for example - didn't really do it for me. They had good microcontrast but (at least in the pics I took with it) not the tonal shading.
 
BTW, I understand the skepticism many have for this. I used to have this same skepticism. However, last fall I was looking at an image made by my Sigma 65mm F2 - again at 100% - and I thought "gee, that looks nice & three-dimensional." And so I thought about all the discussions I've read about some lenses having "3D pop." And thought, "Nah, It's just the lighting." And of course, lighting is an important part of the equation. But to test that hypothesis - that's it's just the lighting - I made that same image with the same lighting using my 24-105, and sure enough I didn't see that poppy 3D rendering. There was lots of detail but it looked flat. And now I am on a quest, LOL, the first step of which was to buy the S-Pro 70-200 F2.8
In my experience, it's a combination of 3 things. The subject, the light, and the lens.
I see it a bit in automotive subjects. Cars and motorcycles. I suspect this is because they have lots of shiny, reflective curvature, which in the right light shows the subtle colour and tone changes. Only guessing, a little bit of an educated guess mind you, as I've never seen the effect in a landscape photograph. And seen it out of an Ultrawide lens either. My Lumix 18mm F1.8 gets pretty close though.
I can't show you any shots from my S5 lenses, as forum restrictions prevent me from posting them, and I can't access Flickr from my current holiday location. But I can show you a couple out of my m4/3 cameras that I can get access to.
1000004319.jpg
  • Panasonic - DC-G9
  • 30.0 mm
  • ƒ/1.4
  • 1/2500 sec
  • Center-Weighted Average
  • Auto exposure
  • ISO 100
1000004318.jpg
  • Panasonic - DC-G100
  • 30.0 mm
  • ƒ/1.6
  • 1/4000 sec
  • Pattern
  • Auto exposure
  • -1
  • ISO 100

They're out of my Sigma 30mm F1.4 which is not expensive, or noted for exceptional sharpness. But it does produce a reasonable amount of CA, which seems to be a common theme running through the lenses I see the effect.
My Lumix 50mm F1.8, and Sigma 28-70mm F2.8. It does make me wonder a bit
 
If you want to see real 3D effects, you need to search for Foveon images of the Sigma DP1M, DP2M and DP3M. Or Sigma SD14 and Sigma SD14 and Sigma SD1.

All later Foveon sensor were changed and do not have this 3D effect.
 
These indeterminate concepts such as "3D pop", "microcontrast" or "Leica look" are very interesting hahahaha :D:D
they sound like the urban myths that many people who have spent a fortune on gear use to justify that expense, very often it happens with Leica users, that in any discussion they appeal to the same old mantras... I don't want to bother or offend anyone, but as Dustin Armstrong says in his comparison of the Lumix 24-60mm and 24-70 S PRO lenses, the appreciation of the 3D pop effect is merely subjective.

I thought I appreciated that Leica-look-3D-pop-microcontrast in the photos Steve McCurry took with his Nikon gear (D800 + Nikon 24-70mm f2.8), before he started using the Leicas SL2 and SL3 hahahaha :D

I personally believe I have achieved that effect in portraits taken with the Nikon Df and the Nikon 50mm f1.8 SE, whose price is now around €150 Z04 Kaputtlachen
 
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